Lou Glazer, CEO of Michigan Future Inc. considers a post pandemic reset of schools from the perspective of an economist. It is essential to know what a good paying job will look like in the future and what skills will be needed. A common vision of skills and outcomes for all students must replace the disparity in design between schools for affluent and non-affluent students. For K-16 education, he endorses a focus on the 6Cs from Becoming Brilliant to build foundational career and life skills: collaboration, communication, content, critical thinking, creativity and confidence. (michiganfuture.org)
Dr. Bob Maxfield and Dr. Suzanne Klein continue the podcast series with a focus on resetting education featuring guests with unique insights into the issues surrounding public education during the pandemic and what schooling needs to look like afterward. Their guest for this conversation is Lou Glazer, CEO of Michigan Future Inc. Mr. Glazer holds a master’s degree in urban planning from the University of Michigan and was a member of former Michigan Governor Blanchard’s Economic and Community Development Team. As he created Michigan Future Inc. as a think tank focused on the economic well-being of Michigan households, he understood the state’s economy was fundamentally changing due to globalization and technology, and wanted those in leadership positions to understand what it would take for Michigan to be a high prosperity state. Mr. Glazer suggests that we are still struggling with what good paying work looks like, the skills that people need to get it, and what Michigan has to do to be a high prosperity state.
When asked what we have learned about effective schools during the pandemic and what advice he had for school leaders moving forward, Mr. Glazer cited two lessons for educational leaders: in-person learning is the way most education should be delivered to all students, and narrow content standards that are measured by standardized tests are a small part, not a main part, of what students need to be successful adults. From his perspective it is imperative to reconsider the role standardized testing plays. “The unintended consequence of standardized tests is the horrible things it does for both curriculum and pedagogy. And if, particularly for non-affluent students, everybody wants to double down on so called ‘learning loss’, that would be a horrible lesson to learn from the pandemic. There's a whole set of skills that are not content specific that really are what matter most for kids” that need to be incorporated into state education policy. Mr. Glazer clarified that although basic literacy skills do matter, there are other sets of skills that matter at least equally, if not more, noting it is difficult to build literacy skills until you have addressed social emotional learning.
Michigan Future Inc. has adopted the 6Cs described in the book Becoming Brilliant as the best definition of foundational skills that all students need, irrespective of what they decide to do after high school: collaboration, communication, content, critical thinking, creativity and confidence. He also noted that the authors of Becoming Brilliant argue that collaboration and communication, in terms of brain development, come before content, so educators cannot skip those steps.
Reference: Golinkoff, R. & Hirsh-Pasek,K. (2016), Becoming Brilliant: What Science Tells us about Raising Successful Children, American Psychological Association
Mr. Glazer stated that for Michigan Future Inc., rock climbing has replaced ladder climbing as the metaphor for 40-year career success. For adults to have successful careers, he encourages them to be agile, constant learners. He views a career path as an ad hoc rather than linear experience, unpredictable rather than predictable. “The 6Cs are the definition of rock climbing skills. They also are not just career success skills; they are life success skills.” He re-emphasized that a K-16 education is about more than a good paying career as other aspects for a successful adult life are equally as important as earning a living.
Mr. Glazer went on to note that disparities in school design are significant because they build different skill sets in students. “Affluent kids, by and large, are in schools that are designed to build broad liberal arts skills, where the assumption is that a preponderance of all, if not all, kids are going to go to a four-year degree university. Non-affluent kids are fundamentally in schools which are designed around building discipline, standardized test skills, and first job skills”. He views the fundamental problem with K-12 education in Michigan, the separate and unequal designs in what we want from schools, as a systemic inequity that interferes with efforts to reform education. He concludes that for most students we have the wrong vision and, until we change that, we will not get the outcomes that we want for all of them.
Turning to systemic change, in Michigan there has been a state-level initiative to revise teacher preparation that will soon be implemented in colleges and universities. Dr. Klein shared that Oakland University has revised its teacher preparation program in response to the challenge of how to best prepare new teachers to effectively meet the needs of all students. There are also revisions to state standards under development for universities preparing educational leaders at the building and central office level. Mr. Glazer supports the preparation of teachers and administrators moving in the direction of focusing on a set of broad rigorous skills for all students that are beyond standardized tests with a focus on more project-based pedagogy. He also recommends that districts embrace a similar vision as they offer professional development for their staff members.
In turning to the economy, Mr. Glazer stated that many people do not have a good understanding of the labor market and what good paying work looks like today and will in the future. “Unfortunately schools are still trying to build skills in kids that fit the 20th century paradigm, rather than the economy of the future. Kids need to know the difference between ‘rock climbing and ladder climbing’ and the skills needed to navigate their future career and life choices. STEM and the skilled trades are not the only two paths to good paying work.”
In conclusion, Mr. Glazer encouraged listeners to visit his organization’s website, www.michiganfuture.org. He also recommended two books, Becoming Brilliant and In Search of Deeper Learning. He noted these authors strongly believe that great schools also offer opportunities in electives and extra-curricular activities to build the skills described in the 6Cs that are critical for student’s current and future success.
Golinkoff, R. & Hirsh-Pasek,K. (2016), Becoming Brilliant: What Science Tells us about Raising Successful Children, American Psychological Association
Mehta, J. & Fine, S. (2019). In Search of Deeper Learning: The Quest to Remake the American High School, Harvard University Press
Bob Maxfield:
Welcome to Podcast for Leaderful Schools, coming to you almost live from Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan. This is Bob Maxfield, and I'm joined today by my ever wonderful co-host Dr. Suzanne Klein, and Sue we never could begin these without a weather report and its mid-March here in Michigan.
[00:21.690]
Suzanne Klein:
The snow is melting and almost gone in the lower part of the mitten. We're slated to have more sunshine today. We've been on a roll for about a week so people are feeling like spring's in the air, and I even saw someone driving down Woodward Avenue in a convertible eating an ice cream cone the other day Bob, had it been a different kind of car, it could have been you.
[00:45.630]
Bob Maxfield:
I wish it was. So for our listeners, this is kind of the fourth in a series of podcast interviews that we've labeled the "great reset". Podcasts for Leaderful Schools is all about school leadership and particularly school leadership that engages everyone. And so we've invited a series of guests who we think bring unique insights into this whole issue of what's going on in public education today during the pandemic and what it needs to look like after.
So today it's a real treat to be able to welcome Lou Glazer, who is the CEO of Michigan Future Inc. and a guy that we've been able to call on two or three times for various forums, because we always appreciate his wonderful insights. So Lou delighted you can be with us.
[01:41.820]
Lou Glazer:
My pleasure.
[01:43.680]
Bob Maxfield:
So why don't we just will begin by letting you introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background, and what led you to create Michigan Future and what it's currently about.
[02:00.030]
Lou Glazer:
I haven't been asked that question in quite a while. I've a master's degree in urban planning from the University of Michigan, if you want to go back that far. So I ended up working for Governor Blanchard. I was part of his Economic and Community Development Team. And when he lost I decided that I didn't want to work in government as a next job, largely because I thought he- You know I don't know if I would think the same thing now as I did then, I mean the main lesson I have learned for working for Governor Blanchard was/is all the good stuff that we did was never powerful enough to make a real difference.
I wanted to find a forum for sort of making fundamental change. So this is like 30 years ago, we ended up creating Michigan Future as a think tank focused on the economic well-being of Michigan households, to try to figure out because we understood even then, ( I always joke with people, this is before the Netscape browser, so this is like pre- Internet). But even then we understood that the economy was changing fundamentally because of globalization and technology and we wanted to learn and then share our learnings with folks in Michigan, particularly people in leadership positions, what it was going to take for Michigan to return to being a high prosperity state, a place with a broad middle class. Basically that's what we've been working on for 30 years. And in many ways it's still as relevant today as it was 30 years ago. I mean we're still struggling with understanding what good paying work looks like, the skills that people need to get it, what Michigan has to do to be one of those places. So that's been the core of our work now for three decades.
[04:26.370]
Bob Maxfield:
I think you could safely say that it's more important now than ever.
[04:31.200]
Lou Glazer: Yup
[04:35:000]
Bob Maxfield: Yeah, I think so. Sue, why don't we turn to the education side of things; I think that's a great transition.
[04:42.000]
Suzanne Klein:
I agree Bob, because the context for education is the state and the communities which wrap themselves around public education today. That's clearly where you've had not only interest but impact Lou. The theme of our podcast series as Bob has mentioned, is this notion of resetting education post pandemic. What have we learned? What do we want to keep? What are we missing? Where might we step into improvements that we now see more clearly than we might have before?
This is particularly important because as you are well aware schools are returning to in-person learning and as a result of that reflection; some feel schools have now been in closer touch with issues and concerns that might have been previously overlooked or people didn't have time for.
Now with this realization I think, and a chance for reflection, and I appreciate your head nodding as I'm saying this, it gives us all an opportunity to say, “Okay let's take a closer look now. What might we do differently? What might we do the same?” I'm curious, what do you hope has been learned during this time, and what advice might you offer for school leaders moving forward?
[05:58.620]
Lou Glazer:
Well, hopefully, the first thing we've learned is, that this notion that has been promoted by some sectors of the business community and some folks for ideological reasons, that online learning can replace in-person learning is absolute nonsense, I mean to me. I certainly hope that's one of the lessons that we've learned. You know, we didn't want it, but we now all had an experience with basically only online learning and hopefully we've all concluded that it's inferior education, that that's not what the future should be.
More broadly, I hope that we have learned that the focus on the content that's on standardized test is a small part of what education should be all about, not the main part of what education should be about. And if, as we seem to be headed particularly for non-affluent students, we're going into an environment where everybody wants to double down on so called "learning loss", that would be a horrible lesson to learn from the pandemic coming, if any. Hopefully we have learned that there's a whole set of skills that are not sort of content specific that really are what matter most for kids.
So hopefully those are the two big lessons that we've learned, that in-person learning is the way in which most education should be delivered to all kids, and that a focus on sort of narrow content standards that are measured by standardized tests is a small part, not a main part of what kids need to be successful adults.
[08:06.000]
Suzanne Klein:
I'm wondering, again with your perspective looking at the state and the thinking that you've been doing, obviously which has been deep as well as broad with Michigan Futures, what are some of those other skills that you have in mind? I'm guessing I can identify some of those but again, we are fortunate enough to have your perspective with us today. Dive a little bit deeper into that for our listeners, would you please.
[08:36.420]
Lou Glazer:
So we've ended up adopting the 6Cs from the book, Becoming Brilliant, as sort of the best definition of foundation skills that all students need irrespective of what they decide to do after high school, so those are: collaboration, communication, it does include content, critical thinking, creativity and confidence.
Reference: (Golinkoff , R. &Hirsh-Pasek,K. (2016), Becoming Brilliant: What Science Tells us about Raising Successful Children, American Psychological Association
So our sense is, we've been using for pre Becoming Brilliant, we've been using this analogy, that 40 year career success looks a lot more like rock climbing that ladder climbing. That sort of we've had this notion that people get a first job and then there's a defined sort of career ladder up.
In a world in which work is constantly being changed by globalization, increasingly technology, we believe that folks to have successful careers, need to be sort of agile and constant learners, that they need to be-- that career success is going to be ad hoc rather than linear, and unpredictable rather than predictable, so that's where we came up with the rock climbing analogy. To us, the 6 Cs are the definition of the rock climbing skills.
So that's why we've ended up using those skills, as sort of the definition of the skill set that all of us need to have successful 40 year careers. I would also argue that they also are not just career success skills, they're life success skills. And I think one of the things that we need to re-emphasize in education is that K-16 education is about more than a good paying career, that there're a whole set of other aspects of successful adult life that are equally as important as earning a living.
[11:10.800]
Suzanne Klein:
I couldn't agree more, and as you widen your lens with that last comment particularly, you've offered some advice for school leaders. Broaden that lens for a moment if you would, what about the state of Michigan's post pandemic priorities? What policies, programs, do you see aligning with the priorities you just have been talking about, to create good citizens who are going to lead productive lives and lives with meaning and purpose?
[11:39.390]
Lou Glazer:
Well, I would say three things: first is we need to re-institute a bipartisan consensus that schooling is about more than a job or career. I mean I just think it's that fundamental, and I think we've gotten off track. I mean, I want to talk a little bit about-- I mentioned this in previous activities that I've done with you guys.
That the conversation that we have about education is fundamentally different if we start with the question, what education do you want for your children, as compared to what education do we want for society, at large. And to me, the first question is the only one that matters.
But anyway, getting back to state policy: one is re-establishing that education is about more than just a job or a career; second is de-emphasizing the test. I think the test is the unintended consequence of doing horrible things for both curriculum and pedagogy. And third is making the 6Cs, the foundation skills for all. Those three are the building blocks that we need to re-establish.
And what I would argue, is the kind of folks that are involved in the activities that you're engaged in, and we in Michigan Future are engaged in-when it comes to the education they want for their own kids the answer to those three questions it's much different than it is than we've been asking policymakers for other people's kids. And I just think that we've got to stop doing that.
That that the answer to what's the purpose of education, what role does standardized test have and what foundation skills that we want for our own kids, need to be the answer that we have state policy put in place for all kids.
[13:55.410]
Bob Maxfield:
Back to the short term dilemma that I think is truly a significant problem that people like Nikolai Vitti are facing right now. We know it's yes, we shouldn't be building the future around so called "learning loss", but for many children, there has been a huge learning loss, and Vitti talks about during the virtual instruction phase, at one point I think he said that there was something like, or a truancy rate was something like 70% of kids who just simply weren't signing in, and families aren't able to. So how do we address that coming out of this? As we said, as Sue said at the beginning of that question, that the pandemic has laid bare the inequities that were already there. But now we are stuck with them.
[14:47.790]
Lou Glazer:
Right so (pause) - so, we are not saying that basic literacy doesn't matter. What we're saying is, I think it's two things; one is that it probably doesn't matter most. You know that that there are other sets of skills that that matter at least equally, if not more. But secondly, I think I would argue, is that you can't get to building literacy skills unless you have dealt with, you know what, I don't like the term social emotional learning, but there's a whole set of capacities that come before sort of basic literacy and that might be more important. One of the really interesting things in Becoming Brilliant is that the authors argue that collaboration and communication in terms of brain development, come before content, so that you can't skip those two steps. And yet, increasingly we're starting with content and ignoring everything else, so even if you care about learning loss, I think that you can't start with it.
[16:25.800]
Bob Maxfield:
If you were invited by Governor Whitmer and there was this magically bipartisan consensus in Lansing, which is a dream that we all cherish but isn't too realistic right now.
[16:40.110]
Lou Glazer:
Yeah, although I would say, one of the--
[16:43.770]
Bob Maxfield:
--of meeting the needs of the Detroits, and Flints, and Pontiacs, and Saginaws. What would be an agenda that you, that Lou Glazer, would be embracing short term and then I think over all, long term part of this-?
[17:03.120]
Lou Glazer:
Well, so the first thing is I would want schools, I mean clearly there's an early childhood component of this as well, I would want Detroit schools designed for the same purpose as Grosse Pointe and Farmington, period.
So you know the education that the two of you were providing or were designed to provide for students in the districts you led, need to be the same design as is true in urban areas, and at the moment it is simply not the case.
Affluent kids by and large are in schools that are designed to build broad liberal arts sort of skills, where the assumption is that a preponderance of all, if not all, kids are going to go to a four year degree university. And non-affluent kids are fundamentally in schools today that are designed around building discipline, standardized test skills, and first job skills and that design sort of mismatch that's got to end. To me that's the single most important thing is that we've got systems at the moment that are designed to build a different set of skills in affluent kids than non-affluent kids, and until that ends we're not making--You, you cannot deal with any of the equity concerns that we have in society.
So, once you get the design right, we can have a conversation about how you implement the design, how you execute the design, but at the moment, the fundamental problem with K-12 education in Michigan is that we've got separate and unequal designs in what we want from schools.
[19:10.050]
Bob Maxfield:
Stay with that for a second. Lou, why is that? How did that evolve that way? I mean, is it that parents in Farmington and Grosse Pointe just demanded something different, and parents in Detroit didn't, or?
[19:28.890]
Lou Glazer:
So I don't know if I know the answer to that. But I do think, in part, it comes from-- people in leadership positions ending up wanting a different education for their kids than they want for all kids. Which is horrible, I mean really unconscionable. And I don't know if it was on purpose or it just was an unintended consequence. But (pause) But you know that's what we've ended up with. And that's got to be reversed.
[20:23.100]
Bob Maxfield:
So what I'm hearing you saying is, that rather to address that systemic deficiency, that's the systemic inequity, is critical, is always going to get in the way of any other kind of reform.
[20:39.030]
Lou Glazer:
Exactly, there's absolutely no question about it. So you know we've been using the movie, Most Likely to Succeed,(2015), which is a documentary about High Tech High to sort of show people what schooling might, should-- it's one way of building the 6Cs. From our perspective, it's probably the best way for building the 6Cs and largely the folks that we talked to are in leadership positions in a variety of fields around the state. And most everybody watches the movie; when they leave ask me, why-- can't my kid be in a school like that. The real question they should be asking is, why can't all kids be in a school that looks like that. That's the vision that we need.
And the interesting thing about the movie and about High Tech High is that the skill set that they're building is more rigorous than what's on standardized tests not less rigorous, but it's also broader. It has a fundamentally different pedagogy than we've imposed on most kids, particularly non-affluent kids, that's where we need to head.
[22:10.110]
Bob Maxfield:
We went into this interview today thinking that Lou Glazer would give us a quick fix idea.
[22:16.950]
Lou Glazer:
Well, so I think there's no quick fix. But I do think that there is a implementable shared vision that hopefully we can quickly agree to. I mean getting from vision to execution is really hard, but at the moment for most kids we have the wrong vision and until we change that, we're not getting the outcomes that we want for all kids.
And by the way, I mean I hate to say this, but I'm not exactly sure that ed schools have been a positive force in getting to that vision. So you know I think higher ed has a role to play in this as well.
[23:17.160]
Bob Maxfield:
Sue, maybe you want to pick up on this because you're closer to it than I am. The remaking of both the elementary and secondary teacher preparation programs at Oakland seems to be responding to some of what Lou just said.
[23:34.380]
Suzanne Klein:
Well Michigan has gone through some interesting conversations about a lot of things relating to education. As Bob mentioned, there has been a focus on teacher preparation that is now just being rolled out over the next year and a half in colleges and universities that prepare teachers. There are also new standards that have just been proposed for educational leaders, both at the school level: building principals, assistant principals, as well as at the central office level which have a nice connection to them, in terms of some things you just been speaking about, the notion of education for all kids being something that provides them not only with basic skills, but habits of mind, dispositions, and ways to find success in their life on a personal, as well as the vocational side of things.
Oakland has just redone its teacher ed program and is starting to roll it out in the fall. So I would invite you to let us send you some information about that and give us some reaction to it. It's not that we've found all the answers. My colleague Dr. Cynthia Carver, who's the Chair of the Teacher Ed Department, and her department have been working on this for several years, in response to some of the questions and challenges you've just laid out.
[24:57.510]
Lou Glazer:
If the preparation of teachers and administrators is moving in the direction of building in all kids a set of broad rigorous skills that are beyond standardized tests, with a more project based pedagogy that would be terrific.
[25:24.840]
Suzanne Klein:
There's a lot of that in there Lou, and to get from the pouring of the tea into the cup and drinking it, as you know implementation is key. So the notion of what that looks like, as the teacher prep program basically responds to those new standards, not only at Oakland but across the state, is the key piece to watch closely as teachers graduate and move into the field. I would also say another important piece is what school districts do with their professional development time. You have faculty and staff as you well know. There's a lot of people who have children in first grade and third grade and ninth grade and are hoping not only for the best, but also hoping that the school district in which they reside is going to prepare that child with those 6C skills that you speak of.
So the notion not only what teacher prep is doing to get the pipeline of teachers moving in more ready to be responsive to the mission and vision you've laid out, but then how can we also impact as school leaders, and colleges and universities, the group of folks that are currently in classrooms so that they can continue to expand and grow their skills.
[26:39.750]
Lou Glazer:
You know professional development, by and large, except in a handful of districts and charters in Michigan that are trying to make a transition consistent aligned with the 6Cs, whether they call it or not, but by and large professional development has not been helpful in building 6C skills in all students, so it fundamentally needs to be reinvented. So absolutely. I mean that's part of the execution challenge for realizing this vision.
To me, the reason the main reason why PD is not helpful, still is, is that most districts don't have the right vision so they're professionally developing people to build a way too narrow set of skills in students.
[27:45.060]
Bob Maxfield:
Well, as we get near the end of our time and I didn't want to--an important question to give you a chance to look even further into the future and that is, what are some challenges and opportunities you see 5 and 10 years out, not just necessarily limited to education, but what do you --for listeners to keep on their radar screen looking out into this upcoming decade?
[28:12.840]
Lou Glazer:
Well, I think, when it comes to the economy and, as I said, that's just one of the dimensions, for which we want to build education. I mean I think one can make a fairly strong case that the murder of George Floyd and the attempted violent coup to overturn democracy in America, are more important issues than the economy, and that we need schools that are able to deal with both of those topics or areas in terms of preparing people for adulthood in the America of the future.
Though, when it comes to the economy the thing to me, that is most missing is that people do not have a good understanding of what the labor market today and tomorrow is all about. So that we're you know we're still trying to build kids that fit into sort of a 20th century paradigm, rather than sort of the economy that they're going to live and work in, kind of thing again, and so having a much better understanding of what good paying work looks like today and tomorrow, and on this difference between rock climbing and ladder climbing in that STEM and the skilled trades, are not the only two paths to good paying work.
There's a whole set sort of misdirection in what we are doing when it comes to the economy. I mean to me if anything, that's the most important thing for the next five or 10 years, is to have a much better understanding much more broadly about that. There's a community college in New York City that's part of the CUNY system called Guttman, which is sort of the newest of their campuses, which requires all students to take a yearlong course in what they call the ethnography of work, where students basically spend a year learning how people are now living in New York City.
That should be part of the education of all kids and I would argue all educators, because unless you understand that, it's very hard to have an education system that prepares people for good paying work going forward, if you don't understand what good paying work is. And it's not aligned with our current conventional wisdom.
[31:22.620]
Bob Maxfield:
That's a great framework for looking into the future, beginning with those very fundamental questions.
[31:30.620]
Lou Glazer:
You know, can I do one thing? If people want to learn more about our perspective, they can check us out at MichiganFuture.org. I do think that every educator should read Becoming Brilliant. If there's one book that I would recommend that's the book. If you have time for two, the second book would be In Search of Deeper Learning, which is an amazing book written by Jal Mehta of Harvard and Sarah Fine, who at the time was at Harvard, now is running the education school that is connected High Tech High.
So this is really interesting. They were given a group of what were considered the best high schools in America, which they thought they were going to write a book about, and came back and concluded that those schools weren't that great. And ended up concluding that what was great about those schools was not the core courses, but their electives and extra curriculars and basically ended up writing a book about schooling should look like extra curriculars and electives. It's a terrific book but Becoming Brilliant is first.
[32:56.700]
Bob Maxfield:
We'll certainly link that on our website so that we have that resource being made available to everybody. Sue, is there anything else you wanted to add before we bring this to a close?
[33:09.330]
Suzanne Klein:
I think your recommendations for ways to think about professional development, as well as how we might learn and read more about places that are successful are going to particularly resonate with our listeners, so thank you for chiming in on that, and particularly for the opportunity to learn more with the two books you recommended. That's always a good way to reposition ourselves you know, in terms of what we still need to learn more about and then are the focus areas that we think are the key ones, that vision of all kids learning and being successful really as well focused as they need to be, so thank you very much for that.
[33:48.780]
Lou Glazer:
My pleasure, thanks for asking.
[33:53.400]
Bob Maxfield:
Stay on line for a second before we wrap it up. So dear listeners, thank you, thank you for being part of this installment of Podcast for Leaderful Schools. I always need to remind us that our guest has agreed to be recorded. We have a requirement to do that, so that it is indeed true in the case of Lou Glazer. So please join us as we continue this series of looking at ways to make schools better in the future and to provide a leaderful setting with which all school leaders can be involved in, in charting their future. And thank you again for being part of today's Podcast for Leaderful Schools.
[34:34.110]
Suzanne Klein:
Thank you so much.