As a Director of 21st Century Learning and reflective educator, Dr. Stephanie Dulmage advises leaders to know themselves and what they stand for personally and professionally, to make the difficult decisions and hold the hard conversations that address the gaps and issues revealed during the pandemic. In the reset Dr. Dulmage passionately advocates for digital literacy as a societal life skill, creating a coalition of stakeholders that leverages resources responsive to the needs of all children, and ensuring student centered pedagogy. Leaders must understand that they own their learning and professional growth. They have the opportunity to write their own story, to rewrite their own story, and be everything that they can be to inspire the greatness in their students as well as their colleagues.
Dr. Bob Maxfield introduced Dr. Stephanie Dulmage, Director of 21st Century Learning for the Hazel Park School District, as someone who thinks completely and deeply about educational issues and sometimes thinks a bit outside the box.
In terms of her educational background, Stephanie holds a bachelor’s degree in elementary education with a ZA endorsement from the University of Michigan and a master’s degree in Reading from Oakland University. At Oakland she participated in the Galileo Leadership Academy while pursuing her Ed. Specialist degree. Returning to Oakland University, she earned her Ed.D. in Organizational Leadership.
Her professional background includes over 30 years with the West Bloomfield School District. After 26 years as a first grade teacher, she transitioned to a curriculum coordinator role focused primarily on using instructional technology to transform the learning environment. Stephanie supported schools in data analysis and implemented a data warehouse and data assessment systems in the district as a huge piece of her school improvement work.
Stephanie’s role as Director of 21st Century Learning in Hazel Park, similar to her work in West Bloomfield, is to support teachers to utilize and really think through how might we shift and transform learning environments with the effective application and use of technology. However upon arriving in Hazel Park, she needed to pivot and shift as the district launched into a total systemic reconfiguration of every system, process, procedure, and structure. Collective energy was directed toward how you engage in deep turnaround work around systemic reconfiguration, and what does that take to build collective understanding, to engage in sense making, to really reform and rethink and redefine what the district does.
Now she continues work on the systemic reconfiguration, moving forward the systems work that was started, and leveraging that forward movement to continue to deepen the capacity of our building administrators and our teachers.Her role also includes some oversight of early childhood and elementary education (K-5) in terms of curriculum and instruction, and occasional work with instructional technology, data and assessment.
When reflecting on her leadership path, Stephanie recalls as classroom teacher she held teacher leadership roles. From the beginning of her career, she launched into saying yes to that one committee, or yes to that one decision that she could help make or impact. She had the opportunity to lead as an instructional leader in the classroom, and to impact systems at the building and district level.
Looking back at opportunities and challenges she met during her professional career, from the big lessons that she’d learned Stephanie advises, "know who you are and know what you stand for personally and professionally."
Stephanie notes Leading with Emotional Courage by Peter Bregman is an influential book for her. The book offers guidance on how to have hard conversations, create accountability, inspire action on your most important work and identify the big arrows that are crucial to decision making. Stephanie explains putting the word emotional and courage in the same phrase seems counter intuitive. If we are attending to and cognizant of others' emotions, as well as our own emotions and how we go throughout our day, we definitely can have the impact personally, professionally, or organizationally that we would want to have.
Another of Stephanie’s big lessons is personal empowerment. Over her career and throughout the pandemic she is committed to the philosophy of really living into your days with the knowledge that you have the power to choose your action, your attitude, and your way forward. It reflects her desire to help others around her inspire to move forward as well.
Stephanie identifies the most important lesson is to always do what’s best. She paraphrases a quote from Mark Twain, it is never wrong to do what’s right. During difficult conversations and difficult decisions, when you don’t always know what is the right way, you just own that is it never wrong to do what is right and continue to lean on that, otherwise you would lose your way.
The concept of digital literacy as a human life skill surfaced while researching her doctoral capstone project. Data literacy as a societal skill extends to how we function, make decisions, and process information. To be an effective functioning member of society and process through the massive amounts of data that we get from various sources, it must be embedded in the very core of what we do, and as the research suggests be part of the educational system. It is imperative our K-12 students understand the concept of data literacy in a much broader context and become critical thinkers, critical learners and make good informed decisions with intentionality.
Her bucket list for the reset would be to develop interdependency between K-12 education, higher education, and profit, nonprofit businesses and community organizations to process through and reflect on the very hard questions that need answers, and take a stand as a society on what we believe in. If we believe in the importance of building an impactful educational opportunity for all children, then we build an interdependent ecosystem that is going to connect and leverage every resource we have. What it's going to do is rather than try to find ways for our learners to fit the system, to flip it and have the system be flexible, nimble, and responsive to fit our learners.
Post pandemic, Stephanie hopes we don't push aside the feeling of being uncomfortable with some of the “gaps” right now, or some of the issues that we saw in the system. It would be really easy for us to get back to that status quo place. I hope that we in Hazel Park, as well as other educational organizations, can stay in a place where we don't forget that feeling of being little uncomfortable, knowing that we had some gaps that we need to live into, and really address. Rather than trying to go right back to where we were, we can all collectively come together, say this isn't right, and actually create the space to have those hard conversations.
Another post pandemic hope that Stephanie has given thought to throughout her career is owning decision making about what's best for the learner. Part B is letting the learners have a voice, and part C is actually being willing to respond to what they share with us, rather than putting adults, politics, internal and external stakeholders first. She hopes that we can shift the post pandemic transition to where's the learner, and what do we need to do for that learner, and let's listen to that learner and let's respond.
Stephanie is adamant teachers and teacher leaders need to own their role as an instructional leader in their classroom. Stephanie defines an instructional leader: you are an active learner, you engage deeply in reflection and you not only respond to but ask for feedback. You're willing to really push toward building those student-led, student focused classrooms where you as a teacher are that instructional leader, but you're also doing that in a way that you're inspiring the greatness in the students that you serve.
Moreover, Stephanie counsels teacher leaders to own your growth and your professional opportunities. Stephanie attributes multi-talented Shonda Rhimes (Grey’s Anatomy) with promoting the importance of writing your own story and the fact that while you write your own story, you can also rewrite your own story. It is crucial that teacher leaders understand that you own your learning, you own your professional growth, and you have that opportunity to write your own story, to rewrite your own story and be everything that you can be to inspire the students in your classroom as well as your colleagues.
Stephanie summarizes her advice to leaders: know who you are and what you stand for; be willing to stand up and stand into the things that are important to you and that you know are right; any opportunity you have to have your voice heard, to be a part of the bigger picture of how a school or district is run, leap at it because you never know where that pathway is going to lead. Additionally, it is very important that you understand the big picture and understand how the big picture and all the pieces fit together. Make sure you’re being informed by joining outside organizations at the state and tri-county level.
Finally, teacher leadership is the way forward and the way that we actually transform education. The way we actually have the impact that we want on students is by passionately, proactively and fiercely working on teacher leadership skills in order to impact the small and the big picture.
Transcript for the Podcast with Dr. Stephanie Dulmage, Dr. Suzanne Klein and Dr. Robert Maxfield
Bob Maxfield:
Welcome to Podcast for Leaderful Schools coming to you almost live from Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan. Today we're almost live via Zoom, which will ultimately be transcribed into an audio podcast. That's more information than you want it. This is Bob Maxfield and I am joined by my wonderful co-host, Dr. Sue Klein. And we today, have a wonderful guest. But first, Suzanne, welcome and how are things in late January in Michigan?
[00:25.560]
Suzanne Klein:
They are starting to look like winter, Bob, and knowing what the forecast is, it's going to be a blanket of white coming at us, but perhaps just time to step back and say, what have I learned, what am I thinking about, while we watch the snow come down over the next 24 hours.
[00:42.000]
Bob Maxfield:
So today we're in the middle of a series of discussions about the future of public education, particularly beyond the pandemic.And we have today, one of the people I've always enjoyed talking with because she thinks completely and deeply about education issues and sometimes, even thinks a bit out of the box, and that is Dr. Stephanie Dulmage.
So, Stephanie, we're pleased to have you here. This is a woman that I knew first as a graduate student, and we've watched her career unfold, and we've admired the good work that she's done. So Stephanie we're just delighted to have you with us.
[01:20.430]
Stephanie Dulmage:
Well thank you, Bob, I am thrilled to be with all of you. As you mentioned, I have strong connections to Oakland University, and I'm very excited that I have this opportunity to speak with you, to collaborate with you, and share some of my thinking with the listeners.
[01:37.410]
Bob Maxfield:
So tell us a little bit about your professional and your education background. I alluded to it but you've had an interesting history.
[01:45.060]
Stephanie Dulmage:
So yes, I actually spent 30 years in the West Bloomfield School District and during my tenure in the West Bloomfield School District primarily I was a teacher and primarily with those first graders, so 26 years in a first grade classroom.
And at that point in my career I transitioned to a curriculum coordinator role in central office. That role was really primarily focused on using instructional technology to transform learning environments and that role also included work on data and assessment. So I supported schools in analyzing data and also implemented a data warehouse, and data and assessment systems in the district. And then finally, in that role one of my big pieces was school improvement work.
During my tenure in the West Bloomfield School District I think it's also important to note that as a teacher I always had teacher leadership roles. And it really started way back at the beginning of my career when I launched into saying yes to that one committee, or yes to that one decision that I could help make or have an impact on, and that really launched me into an opportunity not only to lead, as an instructional leader in a classroom, but also to have impact not only in my building, but also on the larger system at the district level, from that teacher leadership position.
Throughout that time as well, I had the privilege and opportunity to connect with Oakland University and teach in the Teacher Leader master’s program. I really had an opportunity to teach a Technology for Leadership class, which really allowed me to reach what I hoped to reach with my students, which was really, to help others see how they could transform learning environments, and really speak up and have their own voice, via the opportunity to connect and collaborate across networks.
And then in terms of my educational career, I did receive my bachelor's in elementary education with a ZA endorsement from University of Michigan. Followed by that, I joined the Oakland University team and received my Masters in Reading degree and then back in I believe 2011, I had the great privilege to join and participate in the Galileo Leadership Academy.
And there was such a compelling pull if you will, to come to the University and complete my Ed. Specialists degree, that I did that along, side by side, that work in a Galileo Leadership Academy. I certainly will talk about this a little bit more later, but I will say that my decision to take that leap to come to Oakland University as well as pursue the work of the Galileo Leadership Academy was really a pivotal moment in some of the changes and impacts and directions that I went in my career.
And then most recently, I guess I just really couldn't stay away from Oakland University. I came back and joined the team as a doctoral student. Just back in March in the middle of the pandemic, actually back in April I believe I would say, I was able to share my capstone project and earned my doctoral degree, my EdD degree in Organizational Leadership. So that would be my professional background and my educational background in a nutshell.
[05:32.250]
Bob Maxfield:
Your current position has an interesting title. It's an...After your long history in the West Bloomfield schools, you are now providing a great service to the Hazel Park School District where you are the Director of 21st Century Learning. What's that all about?
[05:49.260]
Stephanie Dulmage:
So it's an interesting question. It is the question I always get whenever I say it and I get that look like, I wonder what that role is. So at the outset when I was brought into Hazel Park, into a central office leadership role, my role was really to extend the work that I was doing in West Bloomfield; which is to utilize, help teachers utilize and really think through how might we shift and transform learning environments with the effective application and usage of technology.
In addition to that, much like I did in West Bloomfield, I also had that opportunity to lead work on data and assessment systems, along with school improvement as well. So at the outset, I was able to really dig into some of that work and start to have some impact in terms of that piece, transforming using technology. But during that time that I came into Hazel Park, the district was also launching into really a complete and total systemic reconfiguration of really every system, processes, procedure, and structure in the district.
So at that time much like we all need to do, I had to pivot. So that role that I started with, the Director of 21st Century Learning, that role that I initially came into, had to transform. Because all of our energies and all of our efforts and all of our brain power, if you will, were focused on how do you engage in deep turnaround work around systemic reconfiguration, and what does that take to build collective understanding, to engage in sense making, to really reform and rethink and redefine what the district does.
So my role really transitioned throughout the years, to now primarily my focus is still to continue the work of the systemic reconfiguration, as well as really launching more into some oversight into early childhood and elementary education, the grades K-5 in terms of curriculum and instruction. I still obviously dabble in that work with instructional technology, data and assessment.
But really, all of our energies in Hazel Park are focused on really moving forward the systems work that was started, and then leveraging that forward movement to continue to deepen our capacity of our building administrators and deepen our capacity of our teachers.
And then, of course, as we know, the last eight-nine months all of our energies have really been focused on really making decisions and having impact to make whatever we could be the best situation we can for students, parents and teachers as we navigate this global pandemic.
[08:43.590]
Suzanne Klein:
Stephanie, that's a wonderful lead into the next question we have for you. You've had a very rich professional career and a very thoughtful and reflective response to the opportunities and challenges that have met you at every step of the way. So from the vantage point at which you're sitting now, as you look back and as you look forward a bit, what's the big lessons that you've learned, that you're just saying, Ah, I see this more clearly now, or this is indeed where we need to shift some of our energy or this is where we need to reset or reinvent?
[09:17.340]
Stephanie Dulmage:
So in terms of you know, maybe some of those lessons that I have learned, not only now but you know in my career is, I would always say “know who you are and know what you stand for personally and professionally.”
I've just recently finished reading a book and doing some more work with that book. It's called Leading with Emotional Courage. And it's really about how to have hard conversations, create accountability, and inspire action on your most important work. And that is authored by Peter Bregman, whose daily work and whose goal is to help leaders become everything that they can be and to have positive impact on their organization. And I guess you know I reflected on that, the lessons about really knowing who you are and knowing what you stand for, and as Peter Bregman would say, knowing what your big arrows are, really knowing what those big arrows are, and staying focused on those arrows when you make decisions.
And I think another kind of a big lesson, that I mean it's a lesson that I learned in my career but also over these past nine months, is really live into your days with the knowledge that you have the power to choose: the power to choose your action; you have the power to choose your attitude; and you have the power to choose your way forward.
I think, especially during this difficult time, at every point , there were those opportunities where you know you'd walk, you come up against a barrier and have to go pivot this way, then you'd go that direction, then you'd have to go pivot the other way. So the overwhelming nature of trying to make and navigate those decisions ,really called on you to continue to focus on how might we, and really kind of push toward, how can this be an opportunity, and let's kind of move sideways, you know, left and right, and do that through your attitude. It was very easy at any point during this to go 'ugh’ we just can't do it; or you know, I'm too overwhelmed; you know, I can't get my through my work; I can't do what I need to do. It would be easy to stay in that place, but really it's about every day getting up and saying, you know what, I have this opportunity to choose my attitude, choose my action and move forward and help others around me inspire to move forward as well.
And then, you know again, back to a lesson and I really believe this is maybe a lesson for your whole career, but also really impactful to this time. And this is something that I've thought about many, many years. And this starts when I was a very young educator. If you want to be treated like a professional, you need to act like a professional. And you know I there's been many times when we've come across barriers and people want to lay blame or we deflect on to others and talk about how we as educators are or aren't treated like a professional. Well, we have to leave that and we leave that by being professional educators and being professional practitioners.
And then I think maybe one of the most important things out of all of this, is to always do what's best. And I think there's a quote by Mark Twain that says it's never wrong to do what's right. And so as we worked through this, that's where we really had to get. We had to weed through and dig through and wow, were there are some difficult conversations to have and difficult decisions to have. You didn't quite know what was the right way and you had to just say, okay, own that it's never been wrong to do what's right, and you had to continue to own that, and continue to bring that because if you didn't do that, you would lose your way.
So I think those are some of the big pieces of the lessons and maybe some of the things that we have taken away about moving forward, not only in this difficult time but also moving forward as we continue the hard work, which all of us in this room very passionately believe in, which is to really, I'm going to take a little bit from Suzanne and a little bit from Bob to build that coalition of the willing to rethink, redefine and revise the future of education.
[13:48.870]
Suzanne Klein:
And with that challenge Stephanie, and then I think our listeners already have a sense of your passion for learning, not only about learning but passion for learning more so that you can lead even more effectively, what do you need to learn more about? What are you interested in learning more about so you can continue to help support and lead learning in the places where you have influence and opportunity?
[14:15.900]
Stephanie Dulmage:
So I'm going to go back to that book I mentioned that I read most recently, Leading with Emotional Courage, and you know it was an interesting book. And it really hit a chord with me as a leadership book. I believe that it hit a chord because much like all of you in this room, I'm sure we have stacks of leadership books that we have read and we've pored over and listen to and thought about.
Where this one was different was it really hit on that emotional component of it, because you know when you think about even putting the word emotional and courage in the same phrase it seems a little bit counter intuitive, but what it really speaks to is this understanding that you know we are human and humans have emotions. And then if we aren't attending to those emotions and really being very cognizant, not only of others' emotions but our emotions and how we go throughout our day, we definitely cannot have the impact personally, professionally, or organizationally that we would want to have.
And then another thing that I think that's a really, really important piece, is a notion that actually surfaced when I was doing my capstone project for my doctoral project. And it was really about this notion of digital literacy and how the concept of digital literacy is really a human life skill. And really, kind of continue to investigate what that means and how that looks. You know, of course, we all know that we look at data and we do that all the time. But one of the pieces of research that I did during that time really talked about this whole idea of that being a societal skill, of becoming data literate and data literate much beyond the numbers. It's really a big picture about how we function, make decisions, problem solve and process through information. And that really struck a chord with me because, you know, we all look at data all the time. But what that really was saying is that to be an effective functioning member of society and to really be able to process through the massive amounts of data that we get from all different sources, it must be embedded in the very core of what we do, even so far as, this research I did talked about it being part of our educational system. And then if we really want to make a difference, we need to help our young, you know K-12 students, understand the concept of data literacy in a much broader concept than just looking at numbers on the paper, and about being able to be a critical thinker, a critical learner and make the decisions, and make good informed decisions with intentionality so-
And of course I think you've heard this strong, is that one of my real I guess you would call it a bucket list. A bucket list in terms of things that that we hope to achieve, is really figuring out how we can truly develop an interdependency and I choose that word very specifically, between K-12 education, higher education, and profit, nonprofit businesses and community organizations where we come together with not a " I want to partner with you" we have a lot of people partnering. Rather this, “I want to walk, side by side with you down this journey to transform what we're doing in education." where we're not coming at, here's a thing or here's a project, where we're coming together to process through and reflect on these very hard questions that we need to answer, to really achieve what we hope to achieve. And when I say we, what I'm saying is society. I'm not talking about “we” as educators. I'm talking about as a society, we need to really, really take a stand on what we believe in. And if we believe in the importance of truly, truly building an impactful educational opportunity for all children, we will come together and we will have those conversations. And we will build an interdependent ecosystem that's really going to connect, that's going to leverage every resource that we have, whether its internal or external, and that what it's going to do, is rather than try to find ways for our learners to fit the system, to flip it and have the system to be flexible, nimble, and responsive to fit our learners. So I guess that would be an area of study and it would also be definitely that the pipe dream or you know, the bucket list of, how might we and why not. And then-
[19:34.410]
Bob Maxfield:
That’s a great place to make the transition to where we're going from here because you've talked so eloquently about what you've learned over the years and what you still hope to learn.
I really enjoy this notion of emotional courage. I want to know more about that. But you're now in the position where you and the other members of the administrative team in your district, are going to have to figure out how to get out of the pandemic. And all of us understand we can't come out of it the way we went into it. And so, turn to use the term bucket list, what are some of the strategies that you hope that your district is going to be willing to embrace as we get past the pandemic, building on what you've learned so far and building on this important construct of emotional courage?
[20:20.580]
Stephanie Dulmage:
So one of the things that I hope is that we don't push aside the feeling of being uncomfortable with some of the, I'm just going to use the term gaps right now, or some of the issues that we saw in the system. It would be really easy for us to get back to that status quo place.
And come back and let's-and we hear it, you know in language all around, 'Okay, we can't wait till we get the kids back, we get them in our classroom, we do this, we do that' but we know that there were things that were illuminated that we didn't, we maybe knew about, or even things that we didn't know about that have surfaced. And so I hope that we in Hazel Park, as well as other educational organizations can stay in a place where we don't forget that feeling of being little uncomfortable, and knowing that we had some gaps that we need to live into and really address, and I think it goes back to this notion of being willing to have the hard conversations.
And I don't mean that lightly at all because obviously for example, if you're, you know as well, we know that Bob, you and Suzanne were in that seat as a superintendent, so and it's very hard when you're having to deal with all your external factors that you have to deal with; your internal, external factors that you have to deal with. But I hope that we can get to a place where we can all collectively come together and we can say "This isn't right." And now, rather than trying to go right back to where we were, we start to have those conversations and we actually create the space to have those conversations where we start to say, you know what, we had this barrier, yeah we dealt with it, but in the future we need to do this. So how might we do that, and how are we going to leverage every resource that we have internal and external to get to that place?
I guess that would be one of my big pieces and then I guess another piece, and this is actually part of something that I've thought all throughout my career, is that we need to really own making decisions about what's best for the learner and Part B is letting the learners have a voice. And then I would say actually "C" is actually being willing to respond to what they share with us, rather than putting adults, politics, internal and external stakeholders first. And so I hope that we can see and really shift that transition to where's the learner, and what do we need to do for that learner, and let's listen to that learner and let's respond.
[23:26.730]
Suzanne Klein:
And as you say that Stephanie, I'm drawn back to that notion of teacher leadership, and teachers in the classroom every day, who are in those conversations with the learners in an ongoing dialogue, not just an episodic conversation as someone more distant might be. So with that in mind, what advice do you have for teacher leaders and teachers, so that in a very genuine way what you're suggesting happens?
[23:53.340]
Stephanie Dulmage:
So the first thing that I would say is to own the fact that you are an instructional leader in your classroom. I think that's where as a teacher that is where you start. And that's where you start to develop that role and not just come and do your job.
To me you can come and do your job, or you can be an instructional leader. And if you're an instructional leader that means you are an active learner, it means that you engage deeply in reflection and you not only respond to but ask for feedback. And you're willing to really push toward building those student-led, student focused classrooms where yes, you as a teacher are that instructional leader, but you're also doing that in a way that you're inspiring the greatness in the students that you serve.
So the second piece that would piggyback on that is that I would say that to a teacher leader is you own your growth and your professional opportunities. It's, you know makes me think about, I know most recently, Shonda Rhimes, you know, who does Grey's Anatomy, all those other great shows we'd like to watch, you know she, you know, had published something about the importance of writing your own story. And the fact that you while you can write your own story and you can also rewrite your own story.
So what I would say is that understand that you own your learning, you own your professional growth, and you have that opportunity to write your own story, to rewrite your own story and be everything that you can be, to inspire the students in your classroom as well as your colleagues.
I would also say, you know, in terms of teacher leadership, and I think this is maybe one of the most important pieces, and goes back to something I said earlier is, "to really know who you are and what you stand for." And be willing to stand up for and stand into that; those things that are important to you and that you know what is right.
I can think of a couple of times in my career where I may have had to go against something, but whenever I went against it, it was because it wasn't what was best for kids and there was never a time in my career that I would do anything that wasn't best for kids. And there were times over my career where I had push back from fellow colleagues regarding that. And at the end of the day I was always able to deal with that challenge or push back, because I knew I was doing what was at the core of who I was and what I believed in, and I knew I was doing what was best for kids.
And then the final thing I think I said this earlier, is any opportunity you have to have your voice heard, to be a part of the bigger picture of how a school or district is run, leap at it, because you never know where that that pathway is going to lead. And what I always say is that it's very easy to get in your classroom and be in that wonderful space with our kids and helping your kids learn to grow. And that's a wonderful place to be. But it is also very important that you understand the big picture and understand how the big picture and all the pieces fit together and have all those parts. And then I guess the final piece and I guess this, this would definitely be, I can see Bob Maxfield saying this you know, over and over about, you know, making sure that you're being informed and get informed. You know I believe I remember Bob, when I was doing the Ed Specialist., you insisted that we join all these outside organizations at the state level and, you know, the tri-county level to really make sure that we understood what was going on. And then Suzanne, another piece that I picked up with you was that elevator speech. You have to know and have to understand and then you have to know who you stand for. And you have to have that elevator speech.
So certainly, I could go on and on about teacher leadership. It's something that I passionately benefited from throughout my career and I passionate believe in, is the way forward. And it's really the way that we actually transform education. And we actually have the impact that we want on students, is by passionately and proactively and fiercely working on your teacher leadership skills and your impact on the small and the big picture.
[28:48.570]
Bob Maxfield:
You anticipated our last question which was, did you have other advice for aspiring education leaders, but really everything you just said can be translated into that, whether a person is a teacher leader working primarily from the classroom, a principal leading a school, a Director of 21st Century Learning, or a Superintendent of schools.I mean those are very transferable pieces of advice, so Stephanie we really do appreciate your insights. I was, as you were talking, remembering back and you shared this in a class one time long before everything you just described, you illustrated this.It was your remarkable ability to engage parents in the education of their first graders using technology. And if anybody wants to know more about that they can check it, because it would still be forward looking and that was 15 years ago. So bravo for that!
So we do want to bring this to a close, and we want to thank Dr. Stephanie Dulmage for being our guest today. We will make your email address available if you don't mind, and if people want to contact you, they can do that. It is important I also note that Dr. Dulmage has given us permission to record this interview and distribute it, and that's something that we need to always remember to include. So with that, Suzanne, any final words?
[30:14.310]
Suzanne Klein:
Stephanie, lead on with courage of all kinds. You are one that lights the way for others because of your fierce devotion and your own courage to make sure all children get what they need, and to make the decision that leads learning in a way that puts kids best.
So thank you so much for being our guest. It's been a privilege to watch your path continue to move through your various roles, in the influence you're now having in the places that you are not only working in but sharing your expertise with, the deep thinking you're doing, the reflection you're doing and the contributions you're making to the field. So thank you so much for your time this afternoon. And that's a wrap.
[30:56.430]
Stephanie Dulmage:
I'd like to thank you.
[30:57.210]
Bob Maxfield:
Also to our to our listeners for being part of this installment of Podcasts for Leaderful Schools coming to you almost live from Oakland University, in Rochester, Michigan. And we hope to you will tune in as we continue this dialogue about looking post pandemic at the future of education. Again Stephanie, thank you very much. And that's a wrap.