Lori Higgins is the bureau chief for Chalkbeat Detroit. Chalkbeat is a national nonprofit educational news organization providing local coverage of educational policies and practices. Chalkbeat also covers school news in communities across the state. Lori Higgins discusses the media partnerships, covering district use of ESSER Funds, teacher recruitment and retention initiatives, and her experience reporting on COVID’s lasting toll on schools in an article co-published with the New York Times. https://www.chalkbeat.org/
Bob Maxfield and Suzanne Klein continue their conversation on the impact of the pandemic, what has happened to schools, and how schools could improve going forward with their guest Lori Higgins, the bureau chief for Chalkbeat Detroit. Prior to joining Chalkbeat, she was an education writer for the Detroit Free Press from 2000 to 2018. She also served as an education writer and the assistant metro editor for the Green Bay Press-Gazette, in Wisconsin.
What is Chalkbeat? https://www.chalkbeat.org/
Chalkbeat is a national nonprofit news organization with bureaus in eight cities, including Detroit, committed to covering the efforts to improve schools for all children. The impact of education on children is evident at the local community level. According to Lori Higgins, “There is very little reporting about what's happening at the local school level, or the local district level. At Chalkbeat we want to fill in those gaps that exist in news coverage. It is just so important that we show editors and publishers that this is a very important topic. When it's not covered, it's just not good for our communities.”
“We also highlight education reporting all over the state so it gives our readers a chance to see the issues beyond metro Detroit that are pretty common to what they're experiencing, or they may find that there's some unique thing that some district in Grand Rapids or somewhere else in the state is doing. So, there is a link at the bottom of our web page where you can sign up for our newsletter.”
Chalkbeat’s Mission
“We are very much driven by this idea that every child deserves a quality education. We are all about our mission, which is to write about the inequities in education… As journalists we’re taught to always be objective but pushing for this is just so vital; pushing forward, not in an advocacy way but in an educational way: highlighting the inequities, highlighting the solutions, highlighting what's being done to address them. When it's in the public eye, there's more of an opportunity or more of a chance that the people in charge: the lawmakers, the policymakers, will listen and do something about it.”
Partnerships
“We do a lot of partnerships with other media, so our story sometimes shows up on other media websites. The Detroit Free Press picks up our writing on a regular basis; Bridge does as well. We actually share a reporter with Bridge Michigan. Right now we're partnering with the Detroit Free Press and Bridge Michigan to cover how districts are spending the COVID relief money. We have a meeting today with our partners just sort of collaborating and thinking about what people want to know about how this money is being spent, and how this money is making a difference for only their own kids but kids in their community because obviously, not everybody has a kid in school, but everybody cares about schools. This is kind of a massive effort on our part, and that collaboration makes for richer reporting, richer stories, stronger stories, and we're not constantly duplicating efforts.”
New York Times Sunday Review co-published an article by three Chalkbeat staff
Kalyn Belsha, Melanie Asmar, and Lori Higgins wrote the article “As schools try to recover, COVID’s toll lingers: ‘We haven’t seen fine, ever’ ”. When they observed classrooms and talked with teachers, the authors noted, “America's schools remain fragile as teachers catch their breath after the latest wave of Covid cases, many are teetering between cautious optimism and lingering exhaustion.” When asked about this quote Lori Higgins explained, “The past few years have been tough on everyone, particularly teachers. We are coming out of a period where COVID cases are down, and people feel a little more optimistic. There's still this fragility in the education system that we have to address… while COVID may be declining, it's still there and the lasting effects of it are just enormous. We'll be dealing with the effects academically, emotionally, and socially for years to come, and I don't know that we're ready for that. I don't know that we've talked enough in public about how long it’s really going to take to recover from the pandemic.”
“At Chalkbeat we themed this year ‘the comeback year’… but we questioned if this was really going to be a recovery year because we were still dealing with COVID outbreaks, and then we got hit with staff shortages and schools dealing with the challenge of how do we keep operating in-person, every day when we have this many staff out. ”
https://www.chalkbeat.org/2022/3/19/22983067/COVID-schools-toll-remote-teachers-students-absences-learning-loss-graduation-rates
Addressing the impact of the pandemic
Although she was reluctant to recommend anything, Lori Higgins shared some personal observations. “I think we're starting to see an emphasis on addressing the mental health challenges that have risen up, and let's be honest these issues predated the pandemic. Schools were dealing with more and more of these issues, and I think the pandemic only exacerbated it. I do think that there's a common, or bipartisan push to address the mental health challenges.”
“I think we're going to see a lot some emphasis on how do we improve online instruction. I think that there are parents who found online learning to be the best way for their kids to learn. Districts will have to figure out how to address the needs of those kids who do want to work; learn online so that they are getting a quality education.”
ESSER Funds and School Finance
“I think that there will be a lot of scrutiny into how districts are spending the COVID relief money and how effective they are at using the money to address the needs of students and staff. I think there's going to be a side argument here about changing the funding system in Michigan, ensuring that the students who need it the most are getting additional funding. And I think there will be an attempt to look at the money that comes in from COVID and say this is the kind of money that we need; this is where funding should be. But I also think that they're going to have to be accountable; they're going to have to use this money effectively for lawmakers to say schools do need more money. They're going to want to see some outcomes.”
Teacher Recruitment and Retention
“The governor wants to invest a lot of money recruiting and retaining teachers. She wants to provide bonuses for teachers and other school staff. People will still continue retiring, and we’ll still have a difficult time enticing people to go into teaching. I think we'll see lawmakers and policymakers looking at more or at broader initiatives. We're seeing more districts with Grow Your Own programs. Detroit just started a program last year where they took support staff through a summer program and then they entered the classroom in the fall.”
“It's going to take people at all levels addressing this, but I think the one thing that lawmakers may not necessarily address that maybe should be addressed is the morale issue. There's a reason people are leaving, and there are reasons that people are not going into teaching. When I look at the system, it seems like this is something that has to be addressed in order to really solve this issue. There’s just a huge morale issue.”
Lori Higgins’s personal story
“I had a grant a couple of years ago to do a big project about career and technical education and it's been stalled because of the pandemic…C.T.E (Career and Technical Education) is such a hands-on type of program and so I'm getting back to that project right now… I'm really excited about how C.T.E. can make a difference for a lot of kids. I graduated from a vocational high school. It prepared me to be a secretary which I did not want to do, but there are so many advantages to coming out of a program like that, that I just value so much.”
“I started college thinking that I wanted to be an accountant, even though I was really terrible at math. I was fortunate to have a roommate who was a journalism major. Going out with her on an assignment to cover a city council meeting was exciting because I always loved to write…educate the community and to potentially make a difference. I quickly changed my major and have not looked back since. I have been part of education journalism for pretty much my entire career. I was driven in part by growing up in a family full of educators: my mother was a teacher, three of her sisters were teachers, aunts, uncles; so many people in my family were teachers. I just remember sitting around at family gatherings and just listening as they talked about some of the challenges and some of the joys of teaching…So when I got into covering education in Manhattan, Kansas, it just felt natural. I think that education is the best beat at any news organization.”
Bob Maxfield:
Welcome to Podcast for Leaderful Schools coming to you almost live from Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan, actually coming to you from the Galileo Institute in Pawley Hall at Oakland University and this is Bob Maxfield, and my wonderful co-host, Dr. Suzanne Klein is with me. Sue, how are you this fine April morning?
00:00:21-->00:00:24
Suzanne Klein:
All is well. The birds are singing and the sun's trying to shine so it must be spring.
00:00:28-->00:01:44
Bob Maxfield:
For the listeners, we are happy to have a pleasant day in Michigan, that's for sure. As our listeners know for the last year, year and a half we've been conducting a series of interviews revolving around the impact of the pandemic on public schools, particularly in our area, but the implications certainly are nationwide and we are attempting to find some common themes to get a sense as to what's happened to schools and what we hopefully could do better in the future.
So today we are privileged to have with us Ms. Lori Higgins, who is currently the Bureau Chief for Chalkbeat Detroit and we'll talk more about what Chalkbeat is. Prior to joining Chalkbeat, she was an education writer for the Detroit Free Press for many, many years, from 2000 to 2018. Prior to that, she was an education writer and the assistant metro editor for the Green Bay Press-Gazette in Wisconsin.
Sue and I both know Lori's work and she's always been one of those people who could be counted on to accurately depict what's going on in the public schools in the local area and nationally. So Lori welcome, we are so happy you could join us.
00:01:45 --> 00:01:47
Lori Higgins:
Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.
00:01:47-->00:01:48
Suzanne Klein:
Our pleasure.
00:01:49 --> 00:01:59
Bob Maxfield:
It is indeed our pleasure. Well so let's begin with some of your background. What got you, Lori Higgins, into journalism in the first place, and then, how did you end up with the education beat?
00:02:00 --> 00:05:05
Lori Higgins:
Sure, so that path was a little different for me. I started college thinking that I wanted to be an accountant, even though I was really terrible at math. And after a year I basically realized that I was doing terrible with my math classes. I was fortunate though to have a roommate who was a journalism major and I remember going out with her on an assignment, where she went to cover a city council meeting and as boring as those can be, that was just really exciting to me to be able to, I always loved to write, to be able to do something I love doing, to educate the community about something and to potentially you know, make a difference in the kind of work that I do.
So I quickly changed my major and have not looked back since. This has been you know a great career for me, education journalism. I will say that I have covered; I have been part of education journalism for pretty much my entire career. I spent a year covering the military and agriculture in Kansas, and an editor came to me and said, hey we have this opening for an education reporter, would you like it, and I said, yes absolutely. I was driven in part by growing up in a family full of educators: my mother was a teacher, three of her sisters were teachers, aunts, uncles, just so many people in my family were teachers. I just remember sitting around at family gatherings and just listening, eavesdropping on their conversations, as they talked about some of the challenges of teaching, some of the joys of teaching.
I particularly had an aunt who taught fourth grade, and she would invite me over to help her grade papers on the weekends. I just thought that was really exciting to do that, to be able to see how her kids were doing. And there is a part of me, maybe this was the journalistic part of me at that time thinking you know, some of these kids are doing really, really well, but some of these kids are like not doing well at all, and you know how are schools addressing their needs, like what are they doing for these kids? I remember thinking that at that time. So when I got into education covering education in Manhattan, Kansas, it was just, it felt natural, it was just something that I love doing. I think that education is the best beat at any news organization. It is. Education is always changing, and that has made the beat, we call the subject areas beats in journalism lingo. The beat is always changing; it is never boring, and I couldn't imagine doing anything else.
05:06 --> 05:18
Bob Maxfield:
And that brings us then we talked about the beat that brings us now to your current gig which is with Chalkbeat. So talk a little bit about Chalkbeat what is, why did it come into existence, what purpose does it seek to serve?
05:19 --> 07:04
Lori Higgins:
So Chalkbeat is a national nonprofit news organization. We have bureaus in eight cities, including Detroit. It came to be out of desire to, I think what we were seeing and what we're still seeing in journalism in the news industry today is there are fewer people writing about education. There is very little reporting about what's happening at the local school level or the local district level, and that is struggling to me and to others who really care about this beat so much. And so Chalkbeat was born out of this idea that you know, we want to fill in those gaps that exist in news coverage.
We're also all about our mission is to write about the inequities in education, we are very much driven by this idea that every child deserves a quality education. As journalists we’re taught not to be, to always be objective, but this is something I think everyone can agree on right, like every child should have a quality education and it is the role of media and pushing for this is just so vital, and pushing forward, not in an advocacy type of way, but in an educational way; highlighting the inequities, highlighting the solutions, highlighting what's being done to address them. When it's in the public eye there's more of an opportunity or more of a chance that the people in charge people, the lawmakers, the policymakers will listen and do something about it.
07:05 --> 07:06
Bob Maxfield:
Thank you for that.
07:07 -->08:02
Suzanne Klein:
Well, it was interesting given your last statement about wanting to put things in the public eye, that just a few short weeks ago, The New York Times published an article that you and two other Chalkbeat colleagues from Chicago and Denver had written entitled, “The COVID’s Lasting Toll on our Schools”. And in the article, there was a quote that we would like your comments about to better understand. You said, “But America schools remain fragile as teachers catch their breath after the latest wave of COVID cases, many are teetering between cautious optimism and lingering exhaustion.” Walk us through and take us into your thinking about that Lori, because it was a fascinating statement as well as one that matches the reality of the conversations that many educators are having with each other.
08:03 --> 10:46
Lori Higgins:
Sure, I mean, I think the last few years have been just this, is of course a no brainer, it's been tough on everyone particularly teachers. We are coming out of a period where COVID cases are down; people are feeling a little more optimistic. We're not seeing the daily mask mandate fights or fights over COVID protocols, although those still exist, but there's just everything is still fragile. There's still this fragility in the education system that we have to address, because while COVID may be declining, it's still there and it's the lasting effects of it are just enormous. As part of that story I spent some time in a kindergarten classroom with just a wonderful teacher who is worried about her kids. She's having to reteach things that she taught them in the spring... I’m sorry, not just spring but the fall and she knows that her kids are not ready for first grade.
All she can do right now is just do the best that she can do and get them where she can get them because they there's no magic here, like you can’t accelerate kids that fast in such a short amount of time right, and so, but I think as a teacher you're still feeling like, am I doing enough, can I do more? And I think that there might be that feeling of have I failed these kid because even though, like there's so many circumstances that are way beyond the control of teachers in the classroom.I’m thinking about this kindergarten teacher who talked about the period in Detroit where they went remote at the beginning of the school year because COVID cases were rising with the variant that was out there at the time and in Detroit you know there's been a lot of, you know, parents have not felt very comfortable with their kids in school buildings, so they went remote. This teacher said, I had at least two kids who I never actually saw them for those weeks that we were remote. They were logged in but they didn't participate, I never saw their faces. I don't know if they were really there learning.’ And what do you do about kids like that? I mean if a kid doesn't show up for school every day, you can, there are things you can do like, that might be a kid who's chronically absent that there are things that you can do right, but what do you do when a kid is there seemingly, but not there?
10:47 --> 10:47
Suzanne Klein:
There, but not there.
10:48 --> 13:44
Lori Higgins:
Yes, yes and not only that, but I think you know there's the academic impact, there's the mental health impact. I mean we saw that with one of the teachers that we highlighted in the story from Denver, where you know she was dealing with some you know incredible challenges in the classroom the day that the reporter visited. There's the little things, like in the classroom that I was in the teacher.. and like kindergarten teachers are amazing, like they are filling a 1,000 hats all at one time.
I cannot imagine how they do this. But you know now you add you know COVID police to do it, because these are kindergarteners. These are five year olds and they don't understand COVID. They don't understand like why they're wearing these. They might have been told why but like throughout the time that I was there, she must have spent… It felt like every few seconds she was having to tell a kid to pull your mask up, put your mask on properly. You know that that is a challenge when you're also trying to teach them how to differentiate between certain sounds.
So, I think that there's just a fragility in the system right now, that is probably not going to go away anytime soon. I mean COVID; it's
it's probably never going to go away either, but COVID will become less of an issue for us. But we'll be dealing with the lasting effects of it academically, emotionally, socially for years to come, and I don't know that we're ready for that. I don't know that we've talked enough in public about how long it’s really going to take to recover from the pandemic.
I think we all thought that this year would be a year of recovery. You know at Chalkbeat we themed this year “The Come Back Year”, and I think really early in the school year we realized that I don't know if this is really going to be a recovery year, because COVID was still an issue. We were still dealing with outbreaks and then as the story that we wrote for the New York Times said, we got hit with staff shortages because teachers were out, because either they were sick or a relative, family member was sick and so you'd have, and especially during the Omicron surge, you just had schools dealing with the challenge of how do we keep operating in-person, every day, when we have this many staff out? Yeah, so…
13:45 --> 14;49
Suzanne Klein:
And those are indeed the day –to-day realities. I really appreciate your calling out on not only the academic, but also the social and emotional family connections, because those have become part of the day-to-day reality. And swinging then back to what it takes to make those classrooms work, you need talented, committed, energetic educators. I, like you, am a longtime admirer of kindergarten teachers and all the things that that they are able to do and make it look like they're conducting an orchestra and getting beautiful music out of it.
I’m curious as you take those big ideas that you just talked about Lori, what do you think policymakers and legislators are going to need to be thinking about, be aware of, react to, what needs to change because you've talked about the what and the impact of that what, so now what? What kind of action at the 30,000 foot view or in Lansing or in other places, do you see as being critical?
14:50 --> 18:15
Lori Higgins:
Um, I think I'll frame it this way because I don't want to recommend anything; I'm not an educator, I'm not an expert, but I can say what I think lawmakers will be focused on. I think there are a couple things that when I look at it and honestly there's probably 100 things that I think lawmakers and policymakers will be looking at, I mean I think we're starting to see a emphasis on addressing the mental health challenges that have risen up and let's be honest, like these issues predated the pandemic. You know schools were dealing with more and more of these issues and I think that the pandemic has only like exacerbated it. But I do think that there's a common, or I guess you could say a bipartisan push, to address the mental health challenges.
I think we're going to see a lot some emphasis on how do we improve online instruction if it's here to stay. I think that there will, I think that there are parents who found online learning to be the best way for their kids to learn and I think that districts will continue to have parents who are pushing, wanting online learning and I think districts will have to figure out how to address the needs of those kids who do want to work, learn online so that they are getting a quality education, because we know that during the first year of the pandemic when a lot of kids were learning online, that it wasn't the best experience for a lot of kids and now we're mostly back in-person and you don't really hear a lot of discussion. There was a lot of discussion a year ago about how do we improve online instruction; you don't hear that much anymore, but I think that online learning is here to stay. It was always here, it was here before the pandemic, I think we'll just be seeing more of it. I think there will also be a lot of scrutiny over how school districts are spending the COVID relief money; a huge amount of money- $6 billion in Michigan alone, some districts receiving gigantic amounts of money. And I think that there will be a lot of scrutiny into how districts are spending the money, how effective they are at using the money to address the needs of students and staff. I think there's going to be a side argument here because there's been the argument for years about changing the funding system in Michigan, ensuring that the students who need it the most are getting additional funding. And I think there will be an attempt to look at the money that comes in from COVID and say, look at you know, this is the kind of money that we need, like this is where funding should be. But I also think that they're going to have to be accountable; they're going to have to use this money in an effective way in order for lawmakers to say, yeah you're right about that. Yes, schools do need more money. They're going to want to see some outcomes from that, if that makes sense.
18:16 -->18:16
Suzanne Klein:
Yes.
18:17 -->19:38
Bob Maxfield:
That makes lots of sense. Hey, one of the things that you may be interested in, we’ve got coming up in a month or so here in early May, our teacher leader project, Galileo 3.0, is hosting a session for local, for a panel of legislators. The idea being to open a dialogue between teachers, teacher leaders and legislators about what are the common needs, putting aside the bipartisan or the partisan issues, and looking at this from a bipartisan thing, so that you may want to tune into that.
One of the things on a related front Lori, one of the issues we've asked each of our guests to comment on is the, and you alluded to it, the real problem created by staff shortages, unprecedented numbers of retirements from teachers, relatively younger teachers, and administrators. A turnover of superintendents in the metropolitan area in the last year has been unprecedented. And so, this presents an obvious set of challenges. So what do you think that policymakers, legislators will do to prepare, anticipate this problem, prepare the next generation of school teachers, and then, of course, further down the road the next generation of administrators, including superintendents?
19:49 --> 22:30
Lori Higgins:
And I think a lot of things will be thrown at this. We're already seeing, you know, the governor wants to invest a lot of money in recruiting and retaining teachers. She wants to provide bonuses for teachers and other school staff. And that will probably be very welcome, but it's a, it's, I think I would define it as kind of a quick fix type of thing that may not necessarily… it may be a band aid solution. It'll make people feel good for a while, but those issues will still exist. People will still continue retiring, people you know we’ll still have a difficult time enticing people to go into teaching and, and so I think we'll see lawmakers policymakers looking at more, or at broader initiatives. We're already seeing that to be on because these issues existed before the pandemic, and so we, I know, I was writing about this when I was at the Detroit Free Press and I left in 2018. So you know a lot of districts are doing a lot more, you know we're seeing more of these Grow Your Own programs where, you're taking advantage of the fact that you have a staff of… Here we have support staff who may be interested in going into teaching, but may not necessarily want to spend four or five years going back to school to get a teaching degree. You know Detroit just started a program this last year, where they took support staff, took them through a summer program and then they entered the classroom in the fall. It’s basically alternative programs that existed for years. I think we'll see more of that. I think we'll see more of you know, trying to identify students who would be interested in teaching and those teacher cadet type programs have existed again for years. I remember writing about them like probably two decades ago, and I think we'll start to see more of those.
I think it's going to take people at all levels, addressing this, but I think the one thing that lawmakers may not necessarily address that maybe should be addressed is the morale issue. There's a reason people are leaving, there are reasons that people are not going into teaching. And if we and I know I don't like to like give my opinion about things, but when I look at the system, it seems like this is something that has to be addressed in order to really solve this issue. There’s just a huge morale issue. I think, yeah, I don't think that's a surprise, like you guys know that, right.
22:31 --> 23:14
Bob Maxfield:
And one of a symptoms of that and all three of us, Elaine, Suzanne and I have experiences with the young educators we work with, who will candidly say, I would not want my child to become a teacher. And that's reflected in morale, and it’s reflected in terms of the dramatic decrease in enrollment in the teacher preparation programs in Michigan. Each, every one of them has experienced the sharp decline and so that's truly a problem.
So if our folks, if the listeners would like to know more about what you're writing about, what you're thinking about and Chalkbeat, how would they access it? How does one find Chalkbeat these days?
23:16 --> 25:24
Lori Higgins:
So our national website is chalkbeat.org. It’s c-h-a-l-k b-e-a-t I always have to spell it out, because when people hear Chalkbeat, they hear so many different things. It's not an actual word, so it’s sometimes challenging, so you can find there's a drop down menu under communities, and you can find every one of our bureaus and so that's where we have all of our stories.
We do a lot of partnerships with other media, like right now we're partnering with the Detroit Free Press and Bridge Michigan to cover the COVID, how districts are spending the COVID relief money, so our story sometimes show up on other media websites. The Detroit Free Press picks up our writing on a regular basis; Bridge does as well. We actually share a reporter with Bridge Michigan, so you can find our work in a lot of different places, but I would of course prefer you to find us on our own website, that's much better for us.
And I would also encourage people to sign up for our newsletter. Each of our bureaus does a daily newsletter where we highlight our own reporting. But what I think is really unique about what we do with our newsletters we also highlight education reporting all over the state. So one: it's a selfish thing for me because I get to, it forces me to really spend some time looking at what other reporters are writing, but two: it's just useful I think for readers because we're not covering education in the U.P. on a regular basis, we're not covering education on the west side of the state on a regular basis. So it gives our readers a chance to see that there’re issues beyond Detroit, beyond metro Detroit, that are pretty common to what they're experiencing, or they may find that there's some unique thing that some district in Grand Rapids or you know somewhere else in the state is doing. So, there is a link at the bottom of our web page where you can sign up for our newsletter.
25:25 -->25:26
Bob Maxfield:
Thank you. What are you working on right now?
25:27 --> 27:59
Lori Higgins:
Gosh, right now I am working on… I had a grant a couple years ago to do a big project about career and technical education and it's been stalled because of the pandemic. Honestly there's you know, every program got affected by the pandemic. C.T.E. of course, you know, is such a hands-on type of program and so I'm getting back to that project, right now, so that that's something I'm really excited about, kind of looking at how C.T.E. can make a difference for a lot of kids. I myself graduated from a vocational high school. It prepared me to be a secretary, which I did not want to do, but there's so many advantages to coming out of a program like that, that I just value so much.
Our reporters right now, we’re…we have a meeting today with our partners to talk about COVID relief spending, you know and our next steps: we've already written stories about mental health; we've written stories about transparency. You know we're just sort of collaborating and thinking about all the… We're thinking about: what people want to know; what people want to know about how this money is being spent; what they want to know about how this money is making a difference for only their own kid but kids in their community, because obviously not everybody has a kid in school, but everybody cares about schools. So we're really… this is kind of a massive effort on our part and the kind of collaboration…One thing I love about being a journalist today is that there's so much more collaboration between news agencies, and that was unheard of 30 years ago when I got into this profession. We were all competitors, it was cutthroat, you wanted to get a story first and that was just it. Now there's just so much collaboration and it just makes for a richer reporting, richer stories, stronger stories, and we're not constantly duplicating efforts. You know, like everybody's got… Think about a topic like mental health. Everybody's going to be writing that story, but why don't we pull our collective talent and resources to do something like bigger you know, and better.
28:00 --> 28:11
Bob Maxfield:
Like pay attention to it. So Suzanne, what as we near the end of our time with Lori, what did you want to, what have we missed?
28:12 --> 28:59
Suzanne Klein:
Well, I'm wondering Lori because we've had the pleasure of hearing about your work and the priorities that you're seeking to learn more about so you can help educate others, if you have a special message or kind of last words as the interview comes to a close that you want to share and or go back and highlight something, because this podcast as we distribute it goes all over the state of Michigan to school leaders from the Upper Peninsula, down to the southern border by Toledo, west coast to east coast of the state. And from time to time we hear from people that are fair afield because someone has shared the link with them. So, are there any last things that you'd like to share, as you wrap up our conversation, which has been a rich as well as deep one?
29:00 --> 29:37
Lori Higgins:
Sure, I'll make this a self-serving comment and say you know, please read education journalism. It is just so important that that we show editors and publishers that this is a very important topic. When it's not covered it's just not good for our communities. And so I would just like, I want you to reach out to me, but I also want you to read the Detroit Free Press, other publications as well, because the stronger we are collectively, the better we all are, you know collectively. So those are my last thoughts.
29:38-->30:08
Bob Maxfield:
That's a wonderful benediction actually because this is a time when we hope that the public knows more about what's going on in their schools, with the amount of misinformation that's out there and some of the negative stuff that's happening as well. So Lori, thank you, thank you for being part of this installment of Podcasts for Leaderful Schools. Thank you to our listeners for joining us and we hope you will continue to stay tuned as we continue discussing these very important issues affecting public schools in America. Thank you very much.