Carolyn McKanders, educator, international facilitator and author, reflected on the impact of the pandemic. “It is paramount to attend to students' well-being holistically by crafting a safe environment, utilizing trauma informed instruction, recognizing learning differences, and partnering with families. Building adaptive systems enables schools to meet the needs of students, staff and the community, and creates cultures which celebrate the diversity of who you are, how you are and your personal strengths, enhancing both individual and group efficacy. Current social issues where polarity exists are complex and need to be managed for good outcomes. For conversations with tensions: pause, paraphrase, begin with “and” to add your ideas or a different perspective, to collectively create better solutions.”
Dr. Bob Maxfield sat down for a conversation with Carolyn McKanders, author of It’s Your Turn: Teachers as Facilitators, who spent three days facilitating work with the cohort of Galileo Academy teacher leaders and district superintendents. As a former teacher, counselor, social worker, staff development specialist and administrator, her primary focus is supporting the well-being of students, teachers and the community. She asks the pivotal question, how do you bring your best self to meetings as adults, because the quality of adult talk directly influences student outcomes. As a meeting facilitator, she shared her thoughts on managing polarities or natural tensions that occur in human systems.
Ms. McKanders noticed that “as teachers and kids are returning to in-person learning we're discovering some really significant changes and pressures that are being experienced.” In her current book, It's Your Turn: Teachers as Facilitators, she makes the powerful statement which aligns with the podcast series theme: “Never let a conflict go to waste, it's an opportunity to do things that you never thought you could do before.”
Dr. Maxfield asked her, “What do you see as some of the challenges that have surfaced during the pandemic, some of those truths that were probably there all along but have certainly become more evident, and how do we then not let that conflict and those tensions go to waste?”
Ms. McKanders responded, “Tensions are not always something bad. They point us in the direction that this part of the system needs attention. These tensions have always been there. The pandemic painted them with a yellow highlighter so that we could no longer ignore the huge differences in educational opportunities between affluent communities and economically poor communities. That was always there and now we're shining the light of awareness on it. We're rethinking how do we support students where there are such economic challenges, personally in their personal lives, and also in their educational lives. One of my favorite advocates is Jonathan Kozel, Savage Inequities, who has been shining a light on this for decades. I'm really hopeful now with the pandemic and with us rethinking and resetting, that conversations will lead to action.”
“We have to look holistically at a child’s life not separately. and recognize that they have been traumatized, as well as the adults. Next steps are to look at what we already know about trauma informed teaching and crafting environments of safety, psychological safety, physical safety, cognitive embracement of different ways of learning, and put that into practice. We don't have to go in and create something; we have a lot of good solid principles that we can begin to put in place for students.”
“I think we need to look at the working conditions of teachers and the relatively low compensation for a very difficult job. What is the environment that needs to be crafted for teachers, so that they can craft an environment of support and safety for students? Teachers need more support; they need to be honored and pulled into leadership; they need a safe environment; they need time to collaborate with each other; they need more even more ways to partner with parents because school and home have totally merged this last year. How can we continue to merge school and home in ways that are productive for both teachers and students and parents and community? We need to start talking to let these challenges flip into opportunities. What gets talked about gets attention and it needs to be talked about in a particular way. We as adults need to truly know how to dialogue about social issues with empathy, skill and openness with other adults.”
Dr. Maxfield concurred that “what needs to be done to better address the emotional well-being of our children, needs to be considered for our teachers as well. The same holds true for our administrators, superintendents and lately school board members.” The conversation turned to the current issue of diversity, "which is a strength that can enhance the self and collective efficacy of the group.” and he asked Carolyn McKanders about examples she has seen where diversity is welcomed, cherished, applauded and integrated into the culture of the building.
Carolyn McKanders “commended Riley Middle School in Livonia, Michigan, where she noticed that students and staff were “happy”. Students and staff are celebrated for who they are, how they are and everyone has a strength.” She recalled her interaction with three middle school students who welcomed her and introduced themselves, accompanied by a different personal point of pride. “That is the utopia that we want, where diversity is announced and not hidden. Nothing needs to be hidden, and there is space for differences. There's a coalescence of all of those differences into one, and it becomes not who you are but who we are. There's synergy because systems that are the most diverse are the most adaptive. I have to make space for you and you make space for me and we create something beautiful together from these parts.”
When reflecting upon her experience with the Galileo Academy teacher leaders, Carolyn McKanders was "inspired by their resilience, love of children, and tenacity to support students not only cognitively, but holistically. Coming together as a community with like-minded and like sharp people is important for your own support, and to support students.She expressed how significant and influential they are in saving lives." She hoped the Galileo Academy teacher leaders “learned the importance of seeking to understand first and second to be understood. The phrase she teaches around the world, “when in doubt paraphrase your butt off”. When in doubt, seek to understand because understanding brings people together. It sustains connection and is what students need to see modeled from adults right now. To disagree gracefully, seek to understand and never use the word “but” or “however.” Use the word “and”- and I see it differently, and from a different perspective. She recommends in a conversation with tensions:pause, paraphrase, use the word "and” and then add their ideas, or a different perspective so that collectively we can come up with better solutions for students and for community.”
Referencing society’s current polarity in schools, politics, religion, race relations, Dr. Maxfield called upon Carolyn McKanders’s expertise in polarity management for advice. She explained “Polarities are two or more ideas and they’re seemingly opposing ideas that need each other in the same space, at the same time for good outcome. Most social issues are complex, multi-answered issues and not problems to be solved. They must be managed with two or more right answers and those are called polarities. The polarity over mask mandates, is really personal autonomy and collective responsibility for community. Both of these need to exist in a society or in a community and we can begin to strategize and dialogue together, recognizing the polarity, to stay in the upside of both, for the good of all is what we are really looking for. People are not quite there, because they don't have the consciousness yet around that it's okay for two seemingly opposing large ideas to live in the same space, at the same time.”
Dr. Maxfield asked, "How to handle pronounced polarization, where it is hard to find common ground?" Carolyn McKanders advised, “What makes people get insane is fear. How can people settle down their fears? It still comes back to understanding. People get really upset when they don't feel heard, so what we do is we keep pushing against each other and what you resist persists and get stronger. Mediated proximity is needed because we can't come together by staying apart and yet when we're together, we need some mediation. We need someone to support us in listening, hearing each other and pulling out the larger issues that caused the fear in us and we need the common ground paraphrased because there is a space of oneness where we can meet.Skillful facilitation and mediation can happen, helping people understand there are really only two emotions: fear and love (Elizabeth Kubler-Ross). Coming out of a space of fear will not get me what I want, and coming out of a space of love will get me what I want while also helping someone else get what they need. We need that space of mediated proximity where someone can support the lessening of that aspect of conflict and more of the cognitive, social, spiritual aspects come to the surface and letting people be heard.”
When asked what she continues to reflect upon Ms. McKanders answered, “I ask myself daily how might I love more fully, because I know love is really going to conquer. What’s my responsibility in healing human suffering? There’s so much human suffering and I don’t turn a blind eye to it. It bothers me and stays with me. And I ask myself, how can we be more like toddlers.I ask myself where does that toddler go, who is full of themselves? Toddlers know that they’re whole. They feel a love for themselves and they see a oneness. When they see their friend, they don't care if their friend is purple, they run towards their friend and they give them a big hug. How can we be more like toddlers?”
Carolyn McKanders’s book, It’s Your Turn: Teachers as Facilitators, published by MiraVia, LLC., 2022.
https://www.miravia.com/products/its-your-turn-teachers-as-facilitators-a-handbook/
To connect with Carolyn McKanders and know more about her work:
teachersasfacilitators@gmail.com
website https://www.thinkingcollaborative.com
Bob Maxfield:
Welcome to Podcast for Leaderful Schools coming to you almost live from Oakland University, and the Galileo Institute in Rochester, Michigan. Today we're coming to you virtually via Zoom as we've been doing and we're also coming to you with a special guest who is, we’ll explain later, in Livonia, Michigan, as part of a two-three day adventure she's having with the current cohort of the Galileo leaders. Dr. Suzanne Klein, my co-host will probably be joining us later but she's also tied into that Galileo meeting as we speak.
Our guest today is Carolyn McKanders and we were kidding about and I was commenting before we went online, that Carolyn has been a legend and a mainstay with the Galileo development over the past 20 plus years. She's always been one of the favorite resource people, and so the current cohort and Jennifer [Michos] was just delighted that she was able to come back and join this group, which is at a special time at this post pandemic time. And so we'll be talking more about that as we go on, but Carolyn before we get any further into the conversation give our listeners an overview of your background, what’s the Odyssey that has brought you to this point in your life?
[01:17 -->03:12]
Carolyn McKanders:
Thank you so much for having me here. I love educators and I love the Galileo teachers, so thank you. My background began with being in Detroit Public Schools. I spent 28 years in Detroit public schools as a teacher, counselor, social worker, staff development specialist, and administrator doing anything that I possibly could to support students, parents and all of the adults in supporting student learning and well-being. That's my background initially, and then I get a chance now to travel around the world as a consultant, supporting educators all over the world and doing the same things that we're doing here. How do you bring your best self to meetings as adults, because the quality of adult talk directly influences student outcomes. So I get to do a lot of work around helping meetings go well, meeting facilitation, also meeting presentations, also managing polarities or natural tensions that occur in human systems. So that's a bit about my background. A little personal piece about me is that I have four grown children and I'm a grandma now and I just love it. My granddaughter is two and a half years old, so I love that part of my life too.
[03:14 --> 04:20]
Bob Maxfield:
The grandparent thing is a wonderful gig. I have four of my own, so we really do enjoy that.
So thank you for that background Carolyn, because it really does lead into our first question. It's really been the theme of this podcast series which for the last several months, is resetting and re-imagining education in light of what we've come through as we emerge from the pandemic. And now the teachers are returning to, teachers and kids are returning to in-person learning we're discovering some really significant changes and pressures are being experienced, but that really leads us into your current book, It's Your Turn: Teachers as Facilitators, and you make the powerful statement in that book that so ties into our theme: “Never let a conflict go to waste, it's an opportunity to do things that you never thought you could do before.”
So let's use that as a jumping off point, what do you see as some of the challenges that have surfaced during the pandemic, some of those truths that were probably there all along but have certainly become more evident, and how do we then not let that conflict and those tensions go to waste?
[04:22--> 06:48]
Carolyn McKanders:
Yes, tensions are not always something bad. Tensions point us in the direction that this part of the system needs attention and as you just said a moment ago these tensions have always been there. The pandemic painted them with a yellow highlighter so that we could no longer ignore them. One of the things that we are paying more attention to now is the huge differences in educational opportunities between affluent communities and economically poor communities. We found out during the pandemic the haves and have nots really stood out, from who was technologically ready to handle at home teaching and learning; who was not economically ready to even provide food and meals on a consistent basis for children who were staying home. That was always there and now it's very blatant for us and we're shining the light of awareness on it.
And we're rethinking now how do we support students who, where there are such economic challenges personally in their personal lives and also in their educational lives. That came to the surface. You know, one of my favorite, favorite advocates is Jonathan Kozel, Savage Inequalities. For years, for decades now, Jonathan has been shining the light on them, sometimes even screaming with that in terms of the distribution of funding, social capital, community burdens that are unequal and so I’m hopeful, I'm really hopeful now that with the pandemic and with us rethinking and resetting that conversations will lead to action.
[06:50 --> 07:06]
Bob Maxfield:
Putting on the Carolyn McKanders’s magic cape, what would you urge policymakers and educators to be doing to address just that issue? What are some what are some next steps that makes some sense to you?
[07:08-->10:41]
It's what we know and we've been knowing, and we have to put into action now, is looking holistically at a child's life and not separately in terms of: here's the cognitive, here's the emotional, here's the physical, here's the spiritual. We've got to wrap children in a holistic cloak because they've been traumatized. As adults we've been traumatized also.
And so we know a lot now about trauma informed teaching and crafting environments that embrace that. I think next steps are first, to take a look at what we already know about crafting environments of safety, psychological safety, physical safety, cognitive embracement of different ways of learning and put that into practice. I think that we don't have to go in and create something; we have a lot of good solid principles that we can begin to put in place for students. Now I also think that teachers need the same thing as students. As adults we've been traumatized by this also.
I think we need to look at the working conditions of teachers and the relatively low compensation for a very difficult job, and also that teachers are putting their lives on the line with Covid. We're not post pandemic we're still right in the middle of a pandemic and what is the environment that needs to be crafted for the teacher, so that they can craft an environment of support safety for students? Teachers need more support; they need to be honored and pulled into leadership; they need a safe environment; they need time to collaborate with each other; they need more even more ways to partner with parents, because school and home have totally merged this last year. So why not use that instead of considering it as something out of the ordinary or bad? How can we continue to merge school and home in ways that are productive for both teachers and students and parents and community? And so to let these challenges flip into opportunities, and now I always say we need to start talking about stuff what gets talked about gets attention. And it needs to be talked about in a particular way. We as adults need to truly know how to dialogue about social issues with empathy, skill and openness with other adults. We’re not doing so well…
[10:41 -->11:35]
Bob Maxfield:
That’s beautifully put. I love the connection in terms of doing what we have to do to better bridge the emotional, or address the emotional well-being of our children also needs to be considered for our teachers as well, and our administrators, and our superintendents, and lately in the news our school board members. It's a huge issue, but you know you've just lead into another question and it's one that I know you've been dealing with, with the Galileo folks this week.
In Chapter five of your book you talk about diversity and know of course that diversity is a strength; it can enhance the self and collective efficacy of the group. So as you've traveled around the country and talked with hundreds and thousands of educators, what have you seen us some examples of schools and districts where diversity is welcomed, cherished, applauded and is really integrated into the culture of the building?
[11:39 -->14:24]
Carolyn McKanders:
Thanks, thank you for asking that question because we want to celebrate those places. I think I'm sitting in one right now actually in Livonia. What I noticed here students are happy, oh my gosh, are they happy. And what I noticed is that students are celebrated and that's what I find is that each child and each adult is celebrated for who they are, and how they are, and then everyone has a strength. In fact, the students were speaking this morning before us and they said they were sixth graders and there were three of them, who were welcoming us to the school. Each one of them said, “A point of pride about myself is...” I'm tickled at that, and then the next one said, “A point of pride about me...” and they all had something different. One child said, “A point of pride about me is that I'm a Christian.” nobody flinched. A point of pride about me is that I play soccer well; a point of pride about me is that I do mathematics well.
That is the utopia that we want, where diversity is announced and not hidden, and it is celebrated and there's a coalescence of all of those differences into one. It becomes not who you are but who we are, where we're seeing and sensing a oneness of human spirit. And it's not just celebrating African American history in February, or Mexican American history during a certain month or German history, it's there's an everyday appreciation of who each adult is and who the children, each one of them are and they really are proud and they say it aloud and they’re not...and they're embraced for it. There's no put down for it; they're actually embraced for it and there's space for differences. I felt like..
[14:25 -->14:55]
Bob Maxfield:
That wonderful holistic view of diversity that you just described makes it so much more. It makes so much easier and so much more appropriate to deal with some of the hot button diversity issues that are out there right now, where we've let ourselves in many communities get polarized around diversity education or different views of history, but you're saying that's really not important. What's important is what you saw among the sixth graders in Livonia.
[14:58. -->16:10]
Carolyn McKanders:
Yes absolutely, and it was pouring forth from their soul. I could tell it wasn't made up, it wasn't pretend, they stood up straight. And I've seen that in other schools across the country. I've seen that in other schools in other countries. I also work in international schools where students come from different parts of the world, not just different parts of the city, but different parts of a world. There may be a woman in an abaya, a young woman in an abaya and there may be a girl in skinny jeans and yet they're working together and they're out in the open with who they are. There's nothing that's hidden, because nothing needs to be hidden, because I can be fully me and there's space for you to be fully you. Then there's a synergy because systems that are the most diverse are the most adaptive because I have to make space for you and you make space for me and we create something beautiful together from these parts.
[16:13 -->16:45]
Bob Maxfield:
That notion of I’d make space for you and you make space for me is so important. Well let's take a couple minutes now to give you a chance to reflect on your experience with the current Galileo cohort. Obviously I can tell you value that community and you said that earlier, but what have you learned from them? And then we'll talk in a minute about what you hope they've really taken away from you. But what have you learned interacting with the hundred or so people that are in this current Galileo cohort?
[16:47 --> 18:48]
Carolyn McKanders:
You know I'm so inspired, I'm inspired, I'm inspired in the sense that I felt they showed me what resilience looks like, what resilience sounds like, and what love of children looks and sound like. I'm inspired by their tenacity to continue to support students not only cognitively but holistically. And they smiled a lot, even though we're wearing these masks. The eyes are the window to the soul. We laughed a lot, we smiled a lot and we talked about the challenges also, but they didn't let the challenges take them down. They were so engaged in taking in strategies and tools. The questions really taught the seminars, because they were so engaged. What if we did this, and what if we did that?The imagining was a better future and was totally there, and they taught me the importance of coming together as a community. I knew it and this week it has been refined for me.
That coming together with a community of like-minded and like sharp people is so important for your own support and in order to support students. So they really taught me how precious, significant and influential they are in saving lives and that's what I believe that they do.
[18:49 --> 19:00]
Bob Maxfield:
At this important seminal time in our history, that's wonderful. So what are the two or three things you hope that they came away with from you? I’m guessing they already given you the feedback about that.
[19:01 --> 21:10]
Carolyn McKanders:
You know what if they were in the room with me right now you know what I hope that they would say? I hope that they would say, if they didn't take anything else away during these challenging, polarized times, to seek to understand first and secondly, to be understood. I just hope that they would say that they learned how important understanding, understanding and then to manifest that through…what we yelled out and I teach this around the world, “When in doubt paraphrase your butt off.” That's what I say, “paraphrase your butt off” and that was our joke.
It was when in doubt seek to understand because understanding brings people together. It lifts each other, it sustains connection and it's what, it is what students need to see modeled from adults right now. We even practiced paraphrasing our butts off. We even practiced disagreeing gracefully by seeking to understand and we vowed never to use the word “but” again in a conversation and not using "however" as a sneaky way to say but. Even when we disagree, we can use the word “and”; and I see it differently, and from a different perspective. So I hope that they would say that now they’ve refined in a conversation, especially a conversation with tensions that they would pause, they would paraphrase, use the word “and”, and then add their ideas so that collectively we can come up with better solutions for students and for community.
[21:13 -->22:05]
Bob Maxfield:
I'm guessing that Jennifer is already contacted her vendor about having T-shirts printed that say “When in doubt paraphrase your butt off” I think that's a pretty good one.
You know what you've just described and this isn't a question we just talked about before, but I won’t throw you with it, but you really described is something that you've referred to in your writings. And I think you mentioned it earlier as polarity management, and I think that given where we are as a society, not just in schools, but in our politics and our religion and our race relations, we need a primer in polarity management, how do we deal with a polarization that's occurred. So let me give you just a second to comment on that, because it sounds like that's exactly what you were talking about with the Galileo folks in the last few days.
[22:09 --> 24:58]
Carolyn McKanders:
Polarities are two or more ideas and they’re seemingly opposing ideas that need each other in the same space, at the same time for good outcome. The first thing that we have to do is recognize that most social issues are not problems to solve, where we can grab one answer and move forward with it. Most social issues are complex, multi-answered issues. They must be managed with two or more right answers and then those are called polarities. So first is the realization that social issues are mostly not problems to solve, but they’re polarities to manage. Then start to identify some of those, like the issue is not really should we wear a mask or should we not wear a mask. You know that's the nitty-gritty. The polarity really is personal autonomy and collective responsibility for community and if we can stop talking about the minutia and raise the polarities and to say this is not a problem, both of these need to exist in a society or in a community at the same time. So personal autonomy needs to be there and collective responsibility for the community, and, and, and then we can begin to strategize how do we stay in the pole upsides of both of these poles or dilemmas.
And to talk together to dialogue together about so what are some strategies that for the health for the higher purpose for the health, safety and good of our children and our communities so being able to have to recognize that there are polarity, being able to dialogue about strategies to stay in the upside of both, for the good of all is what we are really looking for. I can hear it in conversations and people are not quite there, because they don't have the consciousness yet around that it's okay for two seemingly opposing large ideas to live in the same space, at the same time.
[25:00 -->25:26]
Bob Maxfield:
Do you ever worry that in some…, the mask mandate thing might be a good example, that the situation has gotten so bad, the polarization has gotten so pronounced, that it's hard to find that common ground anymore? The common ground makes sense in terms of leading up to avoiding that, but when it gets as bad as it seems to be in some places in America right now, what do we do? What can we do?
[25:27 -->28:07]
Carolyn McKanders:
You know what makes people get insane is fear. And so when I hear that question I always ask myself, what are some ways we can have people settle down their fears, settle down, and it still comes back to understanding. People ratchet up and get really, really upset when they don't feel heard. And so what we do is we keep pushing against each other and pushing against each other, and what you resist persists and get stronger.
We need what I call mediated proximity. Mediated proximity means we can't come together by staying apart and yet when we're together, we need some mediation. We need someone to support us in listening, hearing each other and pulling out the larger issues that caused the fear in us and we need the common ground paraphrased because there is a space of oneness where we can meet. I'm optimistic I have mediated some of these conversations like that. It requires skillful facilitation and mediation and I'm optimistic that it still can happen, because if we can put on the table for people that there really are only two emotions: there's fear and love. That's it, that's the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross’s work. And if people can ask themselves, am I coming out of a space of fear which will not even get me what I want or am I coming out of a space of love, which will get me what I want while helping somebody else get what they need also. So we need that space of mediated proximity where someone can support the lessening of that aspect of conflict and more of the cognitive, social, spiritual aspect, letting that come to the surface and letting people be heard, and so I am still optimistic.
[28:08 --> 28:31]
Bob Maxfield:
Well, thank you for that, because it made me feel better just by doing that. And I think the point that it's never too late, is really an important one today. So Carolyn, as we get near the end of our time together and I think Jennifer raised this question for us to raise with you. What are those things that you continue to reflect on beyond those we've already talked about today?
[28:35 -->30:12]
Carolyn McKanders:
Every day I ask myself how might I love more fully, because I know that there's only love is going to really conquer it and love is tough. We're not talking about pie in the sky. Love is tough. Love made the sun come up this morning and forged a valley, so love is pretty tough. How can I love more fully is a question I ask myself almost daily. What's my responsibility in healing human suffering, there's so much human suffering and I don't turn a blind eye to it. It bothers me, it stays with me and yet I want to know what my responsibility is, and I ask myself, how can we be more like toddlers?
I ask myself where does that toddler go, who is full of themselves. Toddlers know that their whole. Toddlers will say you want to see me run. And they're running zero miles an hour and they say, you want to see me do it again, because they know that their whole. They're not fragmented; they feel a love for themselves. And they see a oneness when they see their friend, they don't care if their friend is purple, they run towards their friend and they give them a big hug. How can we be more like toddlers?
[30:14 -->30:35]
Bob Maxfield:
That's a great place to end this conversation, and a great question to keep pondering. We will, of course if you don't mind, put your link to your website on our podcast homepage so that people can contact you. Are there other ways that people can stay in touch with Carolyn McKanders?
[30:36 --> 31:11]
Carolyn McKanders:
Sure. The name of our book is Teachers as Facilitators ( It’s Your Turn: Teachers as Facilitators) and if they want to connect with me and know more about the work, they can email. or they can go to thinkingcollaborative.com (https://www.thinkingcollaborative.com/) to see the work on that website thinkingcollaborative.com or teachersasfacilitators@gmail.com
[31:13 -->31:52]
Bob Maxfield:
Perfect. Well, we will make sure that that gets publicized so it has been. Elaine and I have certainly enjoyed listening to you and hearing from you and I know that.
[31:24 --> 31:33]
Bob Maxfield:
Suzanne will be anxious to hear the recording of this and hear more about when I talk to her later today. So Carolyn, thank you, thank you for this opportunity for us to share your wisdom to hear your wisdom and thank you for spending the last three days with our Galileo fellowship. As I said, earlier there could not have been a more timely point in our history for you to be here. So I know that you advance their cause and it sounds like they've had an effect on you as well, so again, thank you very, very much.
[31:54 --> 31:57]
Carolyn McKanders:
Thank you so much for having me and so be well.